A study showed that alcoholic men who went to Alcoholics Anonymous became 9 times more likely to subsequently “binge drink” than those who used a cognitive behavioral approach. What’s more, they were also 5 times more likely to binge than a control group who received no help with drinking. The take-home message here is: you’re probably better off learning a cognitive behavioral approach for addressing substance use problems, or you might be better off getting no help at all* – than you would be going to AA for help with drinking!
The study in question was called the Self Help Alcoholism Research Project (SHARP), and it was done over 30 years ago, in the mid 70′s. The results were reported in an extensive book entitled Outpatient Treatment Of Alcoholism by Jeffrey Brandsma, published in 1980. SHARP isn’t perfect and can’t tell us everything we need to know about helping people with substance use problems, but it has some features which make it a far more valuable study than many others in the addiction field – it used a control group, and follow up interviews up to a full year post treatment [a rarity in most addiction treatment research].
Is AA really harmful to your health? If so, why?
SHARP gathered hundreds of men with alcohol use problems, mostly through court referrals/mandates, and also through self referral and referral from providers of other social services. They then randomly assigned each of these men to one of five different conditions. A comparison of 3 of those conditions** leads us to the conclusion that AA can lead to increased binge drinking:
- Lay-RBT – a cognitive behavioral form of self-help sessions led by a nonprofessional ex drug abuser who had been previously helped with professionally led RBT himself
- Alcoholics Anonymous – the well known self-help group
- No Treatment – a control group who received no help of any kind
The subjects in each group had about a year (46 weeks) and between 10-30 sessions of the randomly assigned “treatment” (except of course the control group, which had no sessions. They were then interviewed at 3 month intervals for a year following the initial treatment period.
The significant differences among groups at outcome (the end of the 46 week period) were thus:
- Only 31.6% of those assigned to AA attended enough sessions to qualify to be included in the outcome measures – i.e., they dropped out – which isn’t surprising today with the knowledge that more than half of those who attend AA drop out within 3 months, and fully 95% drop out within a year. Retention rates aren’t everything, but AA has a horrific one. Meanwhile, nearly 60% of those assigned to Lay-RBT qualified for outcome measure – i.e. they continued attending a decent amount of sessions. If you think you have a helpful solution for substance use problems, you need to keep people interested in it long enough to derive what benefits are available – and if Cognitive Behavioral approaches are helpful, then with a retention rate nearly twice that of AA, they have the potential to help far more people. AA is simply abrasive, and drives most people away.
- The Lay RBT group had significantly fewer arrests and convictions than the AA group and control group.
- All groups had a nearly equal rate of abstinence at outcome – but for those who were drinking, both treatment groups were drinking less per day when drinking.
The mean number of reported binges was significantly greater for the AA group (2.37 in past 3 months) in contrast to both the control (0.56) and Lay-RBT group (0.26). In this analysis AA was five times more likely to binge than the control and nine times more likely than the Lay-RBT. The AA group average was 2.4 binges in the last 3 months since outcome. [my emphasis added- SS]
This increased binge rate among those in AA really is a drastic difference, but to those of us familiar with the recovery culture, it makes perfect sense – we’ve seen it happen again and again – and it also makes perfect sense that those exposed to Lay-RBT or no recovery help at all would have such lower rates of binging. Let’s compare the 2 methods used here to understand why.The Cognitive Behavioral approach used in the study (Lay-RBT) rests on some drastically different assumptions than conventional treatment and 12-step approaches according to the authors. Here are a few key examples:
Disorders of the emotions and overt behavior are the result- not the cause- of irrational thinking.
The individual is responsible in the sense that he is producing his thoughts and his behaviors, and hence he and he alone can change them.
A person can literally “think what he wants to think.” He can decide to discontinue a train of thought [craving]; he does not have to think a certain way just because he has always thought that way. Nor does he have to behave the way he has long behaved. It is precisely at the highest cognitive level- where we make the decision about what we want to think and therefore how we want to feel- that we possess the most leverage for emotive and behavioral [drinking] change. [pages 27-29]
The goal then becomes to show someone how to deliberately think for themselves, more rationally – and this will help them to help themselves overcome emotional and behavioral problems, by their own power. Summing up – this cognitive behavioral approach assumes that all people are in charge of both their emotions and behaviors directly at the level of freely chosen thoughts.
This is drastically different than common treatment approaches which assume that problematic emotional states and behaviors are driven by a mysterious disease, environmental factors, brain chemistry, genes – and in the case of 12-step – a spiritual deficiency. On the contrary to CB approaches, 12-step based treatment teaches people that they are powerless to change themselves, and that only by the grace of god, with daily support and reliance upon treatment, 12 step meetings, and sponsors, can the troubled person hope to remain free of substance use. What’s more, they’re taught that outside factors known as “triggers” will cause them to use substances.
Perhaps most importantly to the point of today’s topic – standard 12-step based treatment teaches people that they have no control over alcohol use, that their ‘disease’ is progressively getting worse (whether or not they’re currently drinking), and that a single whiff or sip of alcohol will send them on an uncontrollable rampage of drinking. It is commonly said within the recovery culture that if you start drinking again after a period of abstinence, you will go right back to your most extreme levels of drinking, and then quickly go far beyond that. In stark contrast to the foundations of cognitive behavioral approaches, the purveyors of conventional treatment and average 12-step members alike, violently oppose any suggestion that problematic substance use is a freely chosen behavior.
As a logical conclusion of the belief that problem drinkers are not in control of their drinking, AA also teaches an all or nothing view of alcohol use which surely contributes to the binge drinking phenomenon. They say that moderation is essentially impossible, and attack anyone who claims it is possible – as being dangerous (and responsible for the death of problem drinkers). The authors of the study point this out as a potential problematic issue:
The 3-month follow-up indicated that AA members had increased their binges and more often drank in order to feel superior. Perhaps the philosophy of total abstinence did not work well for these men – perhaps it led to depression and a tendency to go from one extreme to the other.
The Bottom Line
The bottom line is, AA (and the entire recovery culture) paints a grim picture of habit change, and in fact teaches people they’re incapable of it. The CB approach mentioned above paints a more hopeful self-empowered picture of personal change. People then tend to live up to the beliefs they take on as a consequence of exposure to these views – uncontrollably binging in the case of exposure to AA.
To anyone who’s read research about locus of control, this also shouldn’t be surprising. Those with an internal locus of control fare far better on any number of life quality measures from experiencing happier marriages to higher incomes – than those with an external locus of control. The recovery culture instills a decidedly external locus of control (“admit you’re powerless over alcohol”, “let go and let god”, reliance upon sponsors and meetings, fear of “triggers”), while cognitive behavioral approaches instill a decidedly internal locus of control. Think twice before you send your loved one to an AA meeting or conventional treatment program.
* Although this discussion is based on a comparison of two diametrically opposed models of self-help (12-step and and Cognitive Behavioral) and a control group, I still say you might be better off getting “no help at all” because even the professional “help” commonly available for addiction is almost guaranteed to include 12-step elements and rests on premises inherent to 12-step, and clearly at odds with cognitive behavioral approaches.
** 2 of those conditions were left out of this analysis because they were therapies provided by therapists (RBT and Insight Therapy) – as opposed to self-help methods. As the authors noted “These three groups were chosen out of the larger research project mainly because of the important empirical questions that would be addressed. Beyond this, the greater similarity of these groups might have decreased the variance problems encountered in statistical analysis of all five groups.”
SOURCE: Outpatient Treatment of Alcoholism, A Review and Comparative Study. Jeffrey M Brandsma Ph.D., University Park Press, Baltimore, 1980
This post is atrocious!!!! This website is atrocious!!!! Not sure if you heard, but there is scientific evidence that addiction of any sort is considered a disease. Now, there are people that choose to treat that disease and there are people that choose not to. THAT IS THE CHOICE!!! Sorry, but I did not choose to destroy my family, but i did choose to ask for help and mend my relationships (which I did)! I’m glad that you have all these stats for AA, which they all are true, but eveything is depends upon the individual! The literature states, ” Rarely have we seen a person fail who has throughly followed our path!” This statement is also very true. AA is hard work, but if a person works the program to the fullest, they will not fail!!! I have seen many people in the program fail, but they were not doing everything suggested to them! I am guessing that people from this site have NEVER HAD THE DISEASE OF ADDICTION, because they would never post ridiculous information like this!!!!
Why would you make amends for behavior that you did not choose?
Not sure where my post went, but I did post a comment.
To answer your question Steve, It was insanity.
Step 2 states: “Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to SANITY.”
If you get a chance Steve, check google THIQ.
Again, I ask the question: Why would you make amends for behavior that you did not choose? i.e. – if there is a disease which causes you to destroy your family life through drinking, then you’re not responsible for it, and you shouldn’t apologize to anyone about it. Would you expect an older relative with alzheimer’s to apologize for behavior caused by alzheimer’s disease (true “insanity)?
Thanks for all your wonderful advice:
My thanks are of course, sarcastic – in case you couldn’t tell. If you haven’t noticed, several (possibly a majority) of the pages and posts on this site are dedicated to reviewing and analyzing the “evidence” and illogic that addiction and alcoholism are diseases.
I was given the THIQ talk in my first rehab-stay back in 1997, at High Watch Farm (founded by Bill Wilson himself!). It’s a dead hypothesis, and folklore at this point. I only ever hear it from hardcore 12-steppers. You might note that not even Nora Volkow, Kevin Mccauley, or any other notable disease-concept pushers are even mentioning the term ‘THIQ’ today.
First – nobody was able to replicate the results of the initial study which sparked the hypothesis. As the Addiction Science Research and Education Center of Texas University noted on their “Myths” page:
Second – there are some things about the THIQ hypothesis which clash with newer theories (disclaimer, I don’t necessarily agree with these theories). It’s said that THIQ is a “permanent” blocker – currently, drug companies are in a race to create blockers for every drug of abuse – because the theory is that by blocking the effect of the drug, the desire to use the drug will be extinguished because people will learn that it offers no reward. If THIQ is truly a blocker, then it should, by currently promoted logic, cause people to stop drinking.
Third – the folklore about THIQ’s comes along with a neat little (false) story about how the researcher who discovered it in alcoholic cadavers thought that she was looking at the brains of heroin addicts, because it’s a chemical produced in heroin addiction, and was shocked to learn that these weren’t heroin users at all. This means that the way the THIQ theory is presented rests its entire claim upon the assumption that heroin addiction, specifically, is a disease. So if you’re gonna claim that alcohol addiction is a disease based on the THIQ hypothesis, you still haven’t proven anything, you’ve only noted a similarity between heroin and alcohol addiction (a similarity which I don’t even know to be true, but then I’m not the guy pushing this theory) – if the similarity holds true, you would then need to show that heroin addiction is indeed a disease (in order to have a logically sound argument) – and this brings us down yet another rabbit hole.
I suppose one day I will post a reference page on the THIQ hypothesis, so I can simply link to it when it’s brought up, as it always is by the most hardcore of 12-steppers. Not that I respect the addiction research world, but c’mon, their job is to disseminate the disease concept and they don’t even talk about this THIQ nonsense at this point! If the THIQ hypothesis is the first thing brought up by so many steppers as a defense of the disease model, it shows how truly isolated and out of touch your little world is.
So, Steven, I guess you are also stating that people with bi-polar disorders and schizophrenia have a choice about developing their illness, because they cause harm to there family as well. ALCOHOLISM IS MEDICALLY PROVEN TO BE A DISEASE!!! There are four words that the medical profession use to characterise a disease or illness …
Primary
Progressive
Chronic
Fatal
Is it primary? Well, alcoholism is a describable and identifiable condition that causes other physical problems like liver damage and malnutrition so it can be regarded as an illness in it’s own right, therefore making it primary.
As for it being progressive … alcoholism definitely tends to get worse over time so there can be no arguments about that one. It is also something that stays in the body, whether or not a triggering substance has activated it, whether it be alcohol or another drug.
An alcoholic who has been clean for a couple of years and relapses again will experience drinking like he hasn’t had that break for two years. In other words, your body responds as if you’ve continued using all that time even though there was a break for two years.
In the case of drug addicts who have stopped and come back to using after a period of time often end up overdosing because it feels like they haven’t been away, but their body actually can’t handle the doses they’re putting in anymore.
Alcoholism is also unquestionably chronic because it is a condition that gets worse over time and is long-lasting or recurrent. Many expers say it can be arrested – but never cured.
And as for it being fatal, most definitely. We all know that alcoholism kills – and that many people die from this terrible illness every day.
Also, I glad you have all your wonderful stats, but I went to my AA home group last night in my little town in Northern California and just the people celebrating a birthday summed up to well over 200 years and they are still coming back. I guess you can’t debunk that statistic?????
If you want a point by point explanation of why this is an insane conclusion on your part:
I can give you one – or you could just read back through the comments carefully.
What I find incredible here, is that you’re supporting my arguments against AA. The point of this post was that after exposure to 12-step programs, people become more likely to binge – and that I think it’s due to the fact that they learn that this is what’s supposed to happen, and because of the concept of addiction that they’re taught. And here you come along, giving my readers a beautiful example of the brainwashing in self-defeating nonsense that happens in AA, and you’ve attested to the fact that this post abstinence bingeing is indeed commonplace within AA. For this, I sincerely thank you.
I want you to know that my goal is not to convince you to leave AA. As long as you love it, you should stick with it. But please recognize that you’re in the minority – you’re a 5-per-center – the other 95% of people who go to AA end up leaving very quickly, most within a few months. Yet these people have problems which they want to solve, and they’re told that AA is the only way to solve those problems. It is not. The vast majority of people with substance use problems (and when I use that term, it encompasses what you know as substance abuse, substance dependence, alcoholism, addiction, etc) – solve their problems without AA or treatment – a majority of them returning to moderate levels of substance use. Yet, we live in a society where views of substance use are dominated by the recovery culture’s (12-step and rehab industry) very mistaken and asinine dogma – and these are passed along as gospel, treated as sacred cows, not to be questioned. It is the views of the recovery culture which are wrong – and those who seek to make those views unquestionable, are the dangerous ones.
Just so you know, your own sobriety is directly the product of your own choice – even if it was a placebo effect that convinced you to make that choice. Give yourself credit.
Steven,
I am NOT in a CULT, nor am I BRAINWASHED!!!! Also, it is not okay to relapse or drink or use in recovery, but unfortunately people do! In AA, what would you like us to do rather then be supportive of the people that go out??? Beat them over the head with a club and tell them they are a waste of a human being???? If you knew the program like you say you do, you would know that that is not our nature! Also, you would not say that we are brainwashed!!! “The only requirement for AA membership is the desire to stop drinking.” Sorry, we don’t kick our members out of the program!!! EVERY person that I saw fail in AA did not work the program as suggested. I may be a 5-per-center, but I work hard to stay sober and I do what is suggested by my sponsor!!! Do you know how many people a day walk into a meeting because they are court mandated?? Do you really expect any of those people to stay because the judge thought it was a good idea??? It is a SIMPLE and enjoyable program and is full proof IF YOU DO WHAT THE REST OF US HAVE DONE, but that is not the case all the time!! I have a completely normal life and I am not a FLDS member! I am 31 with a wife and 2 small children! I support my family by going to work everyday!! I have a house! I have 2 dogs and a fish! I GET to go to AA meetings 5 days a week!!! That is a PRIVILEGE!!! I did not have these things 13 months ago BECAUSE OF MY DISEASE!!! It is now my duty to pay it back to the newcomers, so they can get relief that I have. And guess what, I don’t get any money for it like you do!!!!!
Where is this scientific evidence you speak of, Matt? I can’t find it. All I can find are ancient and biased studies by people with agendas. Look into it, I think you’ll see that current medical and scientific trends do not support your statement. In fact, they are the complete opposite.
Really?? Did you not see my post above??? The 4 classifications of a disease???? Addiction falls under all 4 classifications:
Primary
Progressive
Chronic
Fatal
Matt, homosexuality was considered a mental disorder until 1977. Then researchers got a clue. Same thing is happening with addiction. Your defensiveness in regards to the truth is astounding…
Also, you can’t quote the Big Book and use it as “scientific evidence”. My opinion? You’re somewhat new in AA and very grateful. That’s great. But trust me – once you’ve been around for awhile, you will (hopefully) begin to stop looking at the world in such a black and white way. Matt, AA has flaws. It’s OK to admit that. In fact, not admitting to this and irrationally defending it is an indictment on the rigid and dogmatic nature of the program.
Everything in this world has flaws! This is what works for me and millions of others. None of my above post that you commented on came from the Big Book. It actually came from an AMA website, so maybe once your around the program for awhile, you will (hopefully) begin to see that AA is not so black and white!!!
I’m glad that this works for you Mr. Slate, but there is a huge difference between substance use, substance abuse, and addiction!!! In your bio it states that you had a problem with substance use! I am guessing you were court mandated into the rooms of AA! Well, if you have a problem with substance use, AA is not going to work for you! I went from substance use, to substance abuse, to addiction, and there is a HUGE difference and I did not have a choice!! Do you think I chose to destroy my familys’ lives??? I did choose to be in recovery though. I will carry this disease for the rest of my life, and if I choose not to treat it, I will ended up right back where I was before and/or dead!!! You should not say some of the things on this site because THIS is dangerous to people with the disease of addiction. You are trying to help the average substance user, which is great, but the average substance use is NOT AN ADDICT, nor does he/she think like one!!! Please adjust your website accordingly because you obviously have no knowledge on the subject. There is no possible way you could understand the addict brain, unless you have one!!!
Matt…If what you are invested in terms of a support resource regarding your substance use disorder..(that is12-step facilitation/AA meetings and sponsorship) helps you to maintain/demonstrate a sense of calm confidence, peace and hope about your challenge …. If your involvment in AA serves in empowering you, and assisting you in increasing your awareness of your innate ability to consistently, gradually cope better and better with your individual circumstances/ challenges…If your choice of support resource inspires you to continue to define your individual path to better quality of life and well being by making healthier and healthier decisions for yourself, and for your loved ones…If you experience yourself, as result of your involvement in 12 step facilitation,as being successful in building and increasing not only your sense of self efficacy but, also, your motivation to encourage others, in terms of a general philosophy regarding the support of others toward a ‘to each their own path to change/recovery’;Then, by all means, keep on keeping on with exactly what your doing. There’s nothing on this site (at least not that I can see – and I consider myself a pretty reasonable/level person) that suggests or even implies that you abandon ‘your’ chosen method/resource for help and support in facilitating change in your health/life.
It’s important to respect all views, and allow people their own paths to change. One size treatment/support philosophy has never been, will never be appropriate for all. 12-step facilitation works for some. It’s ok to disagree with someone’s views. Hell, it’s not even a crime to disagree with evidence-based facts about addiction/sustance use disorder. Main thing is that we encourage/support good, thoughtful discussion about it. That’s really the only way we arrive at best-practices methodologies and attitudes about how to respond to, treat, intervene in and prevent addiction.
Wishing you ever-increasing health and well being, Matt. And…. all of us :0)
PJ,
Thank you and I completely agree with you, but unfortunately the author of this website does not, and that is what i have a problem with. To tell people in your bio that you are not hear to “bash” AA, and then in turn title this post “Alcoholics Anonymous Leads to Increased Binge Drinking” or comment to my post “And here you come along, giving my readers a beautiful example of the brainwashing in self-defeating nonsense that happens in AA.” For someone who has no education on the subject or is looking for recovery, this could be extremely detrimental to them and/or cost them there life! I ask you, What is the harm of trying AA??? People fail because they do not follow suggestions PERIOD!!! SOMEONE DIES EVERY 19 MINUTES FROM THE DISEASE OF ADDICTION, and it worries me that someone who is struggling with their addiction and lands on this site and wants to make a change, but sees the title of this post; never comes to a meeting and their addiction ends up killing them. There are many other comments by the author of this site in other posts that he truly IS bashing AA! THAT IS WHAT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH!!! I could care less how people get sober, but I would NEVER put down another recovery program that was helping others!
I can appreciate your passion/intensity on this subject, Matt. And I want to restate that I think it’s great that you’re able to utilize 12-step facilitation/philosophy toward sustainable recovery. But, it is the truth that 12-step facilitation/AA is not a good fit for everyone. It’s important to stress that there really isn’t a method of approach that exists, to date, that can claim that it is a good fit for ‘everyone’, or even everyone who ‘tries’ it. And with all due respect, the reason AA/12 step isn’t a good fit for 100% of the people that engage it as a potential support simply cannot be reduced to the commonly used, one-dimensional explanation of “They ‘failed’ because they didn’t follow the steps/suggestions”.
For the record: “Failed” is not a term we should even be using in discussing addiction as it applies to others change/recovery process-and hopefully we don’t use it in reference to ourselves either. The term “failure”, as used in association/description of, or in reference to anyone’s’ efforts in recovery/change, drags with it stigma. We need to avoid using words, terms and phrases that serve to risk increasing anxiety, decreasing ones sense of self-efficacy, depleting hope reserves and, just, all around marginalizing individuals and their earnest efforts. And it’s the individual, alone, who has the right to measure the extent of their own efforts…We are incapable of accurately quantifying the depth and breadth of another’s dedication or level of effort invested regarding recovery goals/the change process…because we are them/we are not living their individual experience. There are a lot of buzz words used in the recovery community like, denial, enabler -even ‘addict’, in many applications- that just need to be put to pasture, by us all, because these words have, over time, developed a greasy film of disrespect and judgment (even when this is not the intent) that prevents them from serving recovery-purposed discussion…But I digress:0).
Anyway… The reasons that methods of support/treatment don’t ultimately serve to engage a person are as complex and diverse as the individual themselves…And that is precisely why there have come to be multiple methodologies researched, developed, practiced and utilized. Menu of evidence-based options – It’s a good, good thing! :0)
The commonly offered explanation so often given in defense of 12 step facilitation by those who are passionately convinced of its merits regarding the often reported, “It (meaning AA) has not been effective for me.” is mostly utilized because individuals, and especially organized groups, who support/back a particular mission or product just don’t find it all that comfortable acknowledging that something ‘they’ themselves are invested in/ are passionate about as being ineffective for others. It’s more supportive of others to say something like, “I’m aware that AA doesn’t work for everyone. It would be great if it did. But, at the end of day, people just need to keep trying something until the something they try serves them in reaching their goal”. It’s probably a lot more helpful and respectful to others to skip that whole inference of “you/those people “failed” because you/those people didn’t do as they were told/supposed to do”. And, by the way… It’s the individual who has the right and the capacity to measure the extent of their own efforts…We are incapable of accurately quantifying the depth and breadth of another’s ‘level’ of effort toward recovery goals/change process…because we are not them.
And, honestly, Matt….that is how that worn out explanation comes across to plenty of people. It’s taken as offense and insult to people working hard to figure things out and make changes that will result in better lived moments. And that’s just one common example as to why quite a lot of people report that they don’t feel especially motivated to even try 12-step facilitation/AA. They hear this commonly used remark from subscribers/participants of the program that usually sound something like ” Oh yeh…well…It didn’t work for those people because they didn’t follow the suggestions!” And that spirit/energy off-puts people before they can even get to the parking lot of their local AA chapter. It goes something like this, “Gee…I don’t want to fail or be called a failure. What if I can’t follow it ‘exactly’ as suggested? What if I have a setback/relapse? I’ll lose everything I’ve accomplished. My ‘sobriety date’ is what communicates to my peers how ‘successful’ I am. I’m not confident I can measure up to that expectation. So, maybe I’ll just skip that particular resource and move on down the line to something else.”
It’s getting better, little by little…But we all recognized that people with substance use disorders and other mental health challenges are already being judged and marginalized by society…So they certainly are not helped in perceiving that potential peers are judging them before they even have a chance to take a look at the program.
“I could care less how people get sober”. Really? Well…It’s my take that you don’t seem like someone (at least based on what you’ve shared in this forum) who would be absent care or caring about others journeys in addiction/recovery. And… just want to offer some feedback on your take that equates Alcoholics Anonymous Leads to Increased Binge Drinking to “bashing AA”. I don’t happen to have a problem with the comment that “Alcoholics Anonymous Leads to Binge Drinking”. I didn’t say that I agreed or disagreed…I said that I don’t have ‘a problem’ with it. Frankly, I don’t see anything,(so far at least ;0), written by Mr. Slate, that moves me to angst. I only need read one sentence to get a sense of Steve’s intent …And that comes from his response to you “give yourself credit” for your choices. It’s only a suggestion…but I think maybe that’s something you might want to really take the time to re-read.
Mr. Slate has a right to his views. He’s consistently level in his approach, if ya ask me. And, though I don’t know what kind of personal experience he’s had with AA… I can say that I do indeed echo his views regarding ‘self-fulfilling prophecy’. What we believe/perceive about our abilities/our journey, however it is we come to believe/perceive it, for better or worse tends to be what we will get.
Clearly, you have worked hard. ‘You’ have identified your reasons for making and sustaining these healthy changes. And that accounts for the very foundation that your increasing peace/health is built on. Once we identify the ‘why’…we tend to be better equipped and have more resilience in getting to the ‘how’ and ‘what next’. Some people choose to do this processing on their own (it takes as long as it takes) and some people choose to engage external support(s) (it takes as long as it takes with this approach too). I don’t think this site is ‘atrocious’ in any sense. The information contained on the site is well written and also includes references regarding sources/empirical data. And, too?…It provided you with a place to voice your opinions and share your views. And that’s hardly a negative. Continued health and increasing peace to you, Matt.
PJ,
I definitely appreciate for responses, and I do agree with a lot of what you are saying. I am sorry, what I was trying to say is HOW people get sober is no concern to me, as long as they get sober and stay sober!!! There are many programs out there that are very successful, and that is is great. And like you said, the one that works for me is AA, and that is great too. I have been to different types of recovery group meetings and the place where I feel most comfortable is AA, but I do not have one negative thing to say about any of them! I saw benefits at each different one. The problem that I have is it SEEMS like this site is focused more on debunking theories and stating that everything is a fallacy with all these stats by a person who is NOT a doctor or scientist, then the SOLUTION-trying to help people get sober! And I find his bio to be very contradictory, talking about his views on helping and not bashing, but again, TO ME it SEEMS like all I see is bashing and not much focus on a solution.
I totally appreciate your focus, Matt. It’ my personal view that what ‘one’ might perceive as unhelpful, negative ‘attacking’, “another” might utilize as opportunity to ‘add to their’ scope on subject matter. Even though it’s usually done out of very supportive desire to steer others toward something we assume should be/will be good for them; We need to have in mind that people are best served, overall, by being exposed to a variety of information, from multiple sources, from a variety of folks, so that “they” can choose how they will use the information. A t the very least, the empirical data presented on this site motivates,(or ‘should’ serve to motivate) readers to do ‘their own’ research (from MULTIPLE sources) regarding the statistics and other data he offers, toward their own solutions for their own circumstances. That can help but ‘add to’ rather than take-away- from our journey/our growth process. The more information we take in (from multiple sources) the better for us as individuals as well as collective humanity in terms of best-practices, growing sense of self efficacy and community health.
I appreciate your perspective and your experiences. I have a ‘sense’ of confidence about your, and your family’s bright, healthy future. Your wife and children are fortunate to have your passionate spirit, dedication and energy! Your an example of the hope that we should all have for ourselves and others. Keep on keepin’ on…and take good care of you ;0) Warm regards…PJ
PJ,
Again, I completely agree with your comments and I thank you. You talk a lot about giving people multiple sources to choose from (which is great), but a title that states that going to AA is going to cause you to drink more and/or worse then you ever did before doesn’t create open-mindedness. If I was new to recovery and saw this site, I would run so far away from an AA meeting!!!! SO HAPPY that is not the case because I would not be typing this comment today, I would be DEAD!!!
Matt,
There is a giant lie out there called “the disease concept of addiction.” It is misinformation and thus harmful. It convinces people to attribute their problems to a (false) stable, thus unchangeable cause. This then creates an expectancy of failure – a lifelong struggle with a boogie-monster (managing the disease, avoiding triggers, etc). This site exists to expose that boogie-monster as an illusion. It also exists to offer counterpoint to anyone who keeps the sham going. 12-step programs definitely fit into that category. Everything we know from solid research on attribution and expectancy is at total odds with any approach that teaches people to see themselves as powerless and diseased in regard to personal behavior.
Furthermore, my mission is to show people that their problems are due to variable, thus changeable, and internal causes. This creates an expectancy of success, provides a reason to try to change, and thus begets success.
The program I teach, which has a 62% long term abstinence rate, is based on some of these same ideas I discuss on the site – and it doesn’t require attendance of any support group meetings, aftercare, or any other lifelong recovery plan. We teach people that they’re capable of personal change, we show them how to do it, and send them on their way – never to be dependent on anyone or anything else other than themselves for continued success.
Your choice to go to AA is your own, and frankly, you shouldn’t give two u-know-whats what I think about it – follow your own heart. But I cannot and will not stand idly by while people enter the treatment system to be taught harmful counterproductive lies, and told that 12-step disease based approaches are the be-all-end-all. They are not. They are certainly statistically no more effective than no-help, and they have some nasty side effects which cause unneeded harm in people’s lives.
-Steven
For record: I favor cognitive behavioral approaches, such as Motivational Interviewing/ REBT etc., Clinical setting/group applied/individually practiced – makes me no never mind. It’s up to the individual to figure out what application works best for their circumstances. “what ultimately works best for our individual challenge’ is going to be most effectively supported by keeping ourselves informed on evolving scientific data. And as importantly, for the majority of people it’s a big help when our change process is supported/encouraged by loved ones and friends.
PJ,
Saying that AA is a sham or that we are spreading lies in meetings is not bashing???? Just asking!
And I cannot sit idly by and listen to a man who bashes 12 step recovery! That is my sole purpose for reading and commenting on this site! You clearly state that you did not create this to bash, but yet again you just did! AA has been around for over 75 years and has worked for MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people! Why bash that???? And I can not understand a person with no medical background to say these things when addiction has already been PROVEN TO BE A DISEASE by the AMA!!! So, now doctors are liars??? Change your bio, Steve!!! Your lying to yourself and everyone who enters this site!!!!
Matt…I gotta be honest and just say that I’m not the kind of person that stays inspired to share communication with folks who come across as though they are ‘heated’/angry. In addition…I don’t much respect folks who, no matter how much knowledge they have to share on a subject, deliberately hagride another. The reason is… once that crap is interjected into communications; it becomes very difficult to have constructive/productive discussion/debate- about anything really.
Although I’m really glad we have these kinds of forums in terms of expanding our ability to connect/share with our ‘fellow man’ ;0) Unfortunately, the downside of sharing communications via written word, in cyberspace, -especially with folks you have not established personal rapport with- is that it’s real difficult to completely discern intent/agenda because the communications are minus facial expression, voice and body cues.
I do want to respond to your question though on subject of ‘bashing’. I, personally, don’t think it’s productive, at all, in circumstances such as this (meaning the pursuit/goal of developing a helpful consensus/middle ground) for ‘anyone’ to use inflammatory, accusatory language, such as “boogie monster’, calling individuals ‘liars’, calling groups of people liars, or in some other way inferring that others have malicious/malevolent intent. We don’t exactly raise the odds that others will come to agree with our points of view if our ‘style’ is to come across as though we are unwilling to listen to a point of view other than our own.
It’s sort of ironic….We can be real skilled in terms of our wealth of knowledge about a subject, but when we come across like an ass…nobody is ‘gonna wanna’ listen to a thing we say. What have we truly accomplished, then?
I mean, if the true motivation is to have a ‘meeting of the minds’, it becomes pretty obvious that when people are going out of their way to provoke or pique another, for the sheer purpose of disturbing their state of mind, then, any targeted discussion established on foundation of mutual respect is soooooo not likely to occur;0). When we reduce ourselves to that kind of stuff we are not doing anything but catering to our own ego. In this, we create problems…We don’t solve them…Despite what we might want to think of as our ‘purest’ intent of bringing enlightenment/protection to the masses.
Matt…. I encourage you not to ‘throw baby out with the bath water’ regarding this site. Please check into cognitive behaviorally based approaches to recovery. One example is SMART recovery. Programs like these are giving people evidence-based helpful options to choose from. Self management and recovery training welcomes folks to integrate 12 step with their approach, if they find it helpful to their process. They don’t knock 12 step. They just desire to provide people with choices
Lastly…There is valid, relevant information contained here on this site developed by Steve Slate. Regardless of the infrequent approach in communicating that lacks some needed decorum, I will recommend this site to others in hope they can add some good info to their journey.
Continued success and health to you in your journey…PJ
Matt, I think we have different concepts of the term “bash.” To me, it holds an extremely negative connotation, and implies malicious intent, a focus on the irrelevant but seedy, and often an element of personal attack – more like mudslinging.
I see my points in the above article as honest criticism. If criticism = bashing, then I guess I’m guilty. But if that’s true, then the term ‘bashing’ has lost all meaning for me, and is useless. If you’d like to see true AA bashing, please visit stinkin-thinkin.com, and peruse the comments section on any blog post there. You might re-evaluate your accusations about my site after that. If my goal was to hurt AA, I’d do much better by spreading the sort of information that exists on that site. That is, if I wanted to sling mud, and have my site “exist to bash aa”, then the site would look far different than it does now.
I’ve restated it several times in several ways, so maybe I’m beating a dead horse here but anyways: I’m targeting the disease concept and any teaching which convinces people they are not in control of their behavior. Look over the site, and you will know that those ideas are my target, not AA itself.
PJ – I’ve quite enjoyed your contributions to the discussion. When I used the terms “boogie monster”, “sham”, and “lie” in my comments above, I meant them in direct reference to the disease concept, and not in reference to 12-step organizations. I don’t think 12-steppers are bad people, and I don’t think that most people who push the disease concept mean any harm whatsoever. I think they sincerely believe it, and think it’s helpful. But I disagree vehemently, and don’t find it necessary to hide my disagreement because some may find it offensive. The disease concept and all that comes with it, is wrong. It’s not supported by facts. The notion that addiction is a disease was an arbitrary assertion, which people have tried to prove scientifically after the fact – and they have failed at proving it.
Ultimately, many people accept the disease concept because it helps us explain a very uncomfortable fact: in the midst of rampant substance use (or any other troubling behavior), people are doing what they believe will make them happiest (it really is that simple). An outsider judges the addictive activity as definitely not worth the price – then assumes that their judgment is so objectively obvious that no one would choose to continue such behavior if they had a choice (that is, they wouldn’t pay the price for the addiction if they truly had a choice) – and then jumps to the conclusion that there must be a mental illness and loss of control involved.
The true solution is for the ‘addicted’ person to expand their awareness of their range of options or potential alternative choices, and investigate those options. Upon doing so, they may end up believing that the addiction is not their best choice, and that they are capable of finding more happiness elsewhere.
If they don’t get dragged down by the disease rhetoric and some other problems with 12-step programs – then this is exactly what successful steppers do. They end up believing that the 12-step lifestyle, or a spiritual lifestyle, or just spending time with sober friends, can offer them greater happiness than their addiction did – and voila, they choose to end the addiction. That’s fine and dandy, but it’s not everyone’s cup of tea – actually, most people find that the recovery lifestyle is not their cup of tea. But chasing down the activities and lifestyle that makes you happiest is everyone’s cup of tea. What I’m getting at, is that the 12-steps offer one specific defined path of happiness that doesn’t appeal to everyone – but the wider principle of building a life which is more satisfying than the habit is what we should be focused on – instead of telling people that they must adhere to the 12-steps – as well as telling people that choice and purpose have nothing to do with addiction and that it’s a mysterious incurable disease which hijacks the free will.
-Steven
Steven…I’m appreciative of your clarification regarding use of ‘boogie monster’, ‘lie’ etc..that addresses that it not intended as personal attack on people. I think I have better scope on how you meant it, now. I don’t espouse ‘disease concept’…but I get why some people do. I also think that a personal narrative of “my addiction is a lifelong illness that I can never hope to free of” carries some potentially significant psychological risk for many people, (not all people), – that it can equate to some version of ‘learned helplessness’ and lack of belief in self to be able to problem solve and cope with challenges.
“But chasing down the activities and lifestyle that makes you happiest is everyone’s cup of tea. What I’m getting at, is that the 12-steps offer one specific defined path of happiness that doesn’t appeal to everyone – but the wider principle of building a life which is more satisfying than the habit is what we should be focused on – instead of telling people that they must adhere to the 12-steps – as well as telling people that choice and purpose have nothing to do with addiction and that it’s a mysterious incurable disease which hijacks the free will.”
Hear hear… What I get from this is you’re urging and encouraging that we raise our awareness and place the focus on a healthy balance. If I got that right, it certainly makes real good sense to me… and no doubt to many, many others too:0)
A ‘cup of tea’ now, I think…Hmmm..I’m wondering why…I suddenly got the urge for Chai:0)
Very best to you both! Patti
PJ,
Again, it is amazing reading your posts!!!! I hope to God you are some how affiliated in the recovery process, if not, then you need to be!!! You have such a humbling and open-minded message, what is exactly what people need!!! You have definitely made me check myself, which is exactly what I need!!! I had an extremely bad addiction to alcohol and to-let’s just say-any prescribed drug (the list would be to long to get into it!!!), and I did attend a cognitive behavioral rehabilitation program. The 30 day “vacation” was my first step to recovery, but I couldn’t stay there forever!!! They did expose us to many different programs and conversations about the topic. Before rehab, I had tried everything possible to stay AWAY from those RELIGIOUS, CULT meetings or as Steven calls it dungeons!!! I saw doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, and homeopathic doctors just so I didn’t have to sit with THOSE people!!! Talk about closed-minded!!!! I am sooooo glad I was some how convinced to return to those rooms!!! People definitely do need balance!!! All I have everyday to live my life is 24 hours, and spending 1 hour a day (out of 24) focused on my sobriety keeps me balanced!!! I don’t think that is such a bad thing!!! Right????
Steven,
I appreciate your post, but i just wish that you would carefully choose your words before you post them!!! I am not going to tell you how to run your site, but I have read a TREMENDOUS amount of your posts, and although not all are offensive, but many are! I don’t now how else to say that this offends me!! You said:
“And here you come along, giving my readers a beautiful example of the brainwashing and self-defeating nonsense that happens in AA,”
Maybe we do have different definitions of bashing, but I don’t know what else to call that!!! I just think that you would be much more successful talking about (yet again) the solution rather than is it a disease or a choice!! Who gives a crap??? Addiction is definitely a problem, whatever it may be!!! Now, what do we do about that??? All I know about the debate are my own personal experiences and if I pick up again, it would be the last thing I do!!!!
Matt
Matt,
On the first night that you commented on my site, I was going to abstain from responding, and just let you vent without challenge. But by the 4th comment, you triggered me, and I lost control over my disease of argumentism. Here’s how you triggered me in your first 4 comments:
First, you played the “not a real addict” card several times, and I quote:
You also personally attacked me several times, referring to my site and writings with the following adjectives- absurd, atrocious, ridiculous. Then you went on to play the “you’re killing people” card:
I responded, not by attacking you, but by asking a simple question about the logic of what you were saying. You stated several times that you didn’t choose to harm your family (because you didn’t choose your addict behavior – the disease caused it) – then you suggested that you made amends to your family. I asked why you would make amends for behavior you didn’t choose. You never answered the question – you only spouted something about insanity and step 2 – and the recovery folklore of THIQs. And that brings me to why I said you served as an example of recovery brainwashing. Your answer made no sense, and the mention of THIQs is just so far outside of what any addiction researchers are saying today – it’s a legend that only lives within AA and Minnesota Model rehabs. It’s nothing that anyone who keeps up with current disease propaganda would ever bring up, because it’s long discredited.
I might also mention that as an example of brainwashing, your first 4 comments contained these hardline disease belief and “AA is the only way” type of statements:
They have convinced you that you are powerless, and that if you ever touch a substance again, or fail to work the steps, or cease “treating” your disease that you will uncontrollably consume enough substances to kill yourself. The dangers of teaching someone that kind of thinking is EXACTLY what this post is about. This is why I said: “And here you come along, giving my readers a beautiful example of the brainwashing and self-defeating nonsense that happens in AA.”
Given the insults you hurled my way, your dodging of the question, playing of the “real addict” card, and the literal example of the exact phenomenon of teaching self-defeating beliefs in the recovery culture that you provided through your first 4 comments on my site – I feel no guilt whatsoever for making that comment. What’s more, later comments you made even heightened the example.
Beyond that, I find it fascinating that you can suggest that only “real addicts” can understand and comment on addiction, and simultaneously, only doctors can comment on addiction. You present the kind of no-win double-talk scenarios so common in the recovery culture. WHO is allowed to comment on addiction? Who is allowed to understand it, in your world? ARE YOU A DOCTOR? If not, then does that mean my readers should dismiss your views out of hand? Do you understand how absurd and ridiculous you are to play the “you’re not a doctor” card while simultaneously suggesting making the atrocious claim that “my treatment is AA.” AA is nowhere near medical, treatment, or run by doctors – it is a mutual support group, and should never be granted the instant credibility accompanied by the term “treatment.”
I was homeless, jailed, and got into all sorts of trouble with substance use. I also was brainwashed into believing I couldn’t stop, and I continued to get worse with that stupid belief and all the treatment in the world. I quit heroin and cocaine ten years ago, and importantly, I quit thinking of myself as powerless and fragile and broken 10 years ago – and I haven’t had problems with drugs or alcohol since then. I don’t go to meetings, counseling, treatment, or follow any religious belief, or take any anti-addiction drugs – I just moved on and live my life. I no longer “crave” (as I did when I was involved in the recovery culture), I do not believe in powerlessness, and guess what – I occasionally drink! And it doesn’t trigger me to shoot heroin!
Of course, now I know what you’ll say – that I’m not a “real addict.” I’ve seen your talking points about 10,000,000,000 times.
-Steven
AGAIN, if you are trying to keep people out of the AA rooms and not focus on the solution, the you are doing a damn good job of it!!!! I apologize if I have offended you! To answer your question:
Why would you make amends for behavior that you did not choose?
I am not an AA guru! I am not a Big Book Thumper! I based a lot of what I know by what I have done and learned from that. I know that when I consume drugs and alcohol, I am a different person. A person that can NEVER get enough. I did know physical harm to my family. I apologized to my family because on countless occasions my 2 small children had to watch there daddy have seizure after seizure, and see there daddy spend Christmas and New Years in the hospital. After listening to doctors tell me I was going to die, the very day I got out of the hospital each time, what did I do? I drank and used some more. That doesn’t seem to sane to me now that I can think clearly. They had to listen to their daddy yell at them over nothing because he was out off drugs and withdrawing! Drugs and alcohol ALWAYS came first, and I love my children more than anything on this planet! Why would I choose drugs and alcohol over my children? My wife said she would kick me out if I didn’t stop! What did I do? I continued to drink and use! What happened? I got kicked out! Why would I choose to leave my house, my beautiful wife, my beautiful children? I moved in with my enabling mom. She got so sick of me drinking all of her NyQuil, mouthwash, and ingesting entire bottles of melaton, that my own unconditional loving mother threatened to kick me out! Ok, mom I will stop! What happened? I continued to drink and use! What happened? I got kicked out! MY own mother! This isn’t even half of my battle! Does this seen sane or normal to you, Steve? Who drinks mouthwash to get drunk? Really? I had absolutely no control over drugs and alcohol! And I wasn’t about to say I was powerless over anything! As you can tell, I am stubborn and I am a fighter! I wasn’t about to go sit in those rooms and lose this fight! I can do this myself, dammit! I made promise after promise after promise to stop! What happened? Got loaded again and had another seizure in my car where I was living in the dead cold middle of January! Luckily, someone found me hunched over my back seat with my legs dangling out of the car! And, so again I go to the hospital, this time on my oldest sons 7th birthday! Let’s see! Did I choose to go to the hospital over my son’s 7th birthday??? I did not choose to be an alcoholic and drug addict, but it chose me! Why would I choose do these things to my children? Who else is going to take responsibility for all of these actions??? Of course, I am going to apologize for what took place!!!!
You continuously say that people shouldn’t have to live their lives powerless! Who is living life powerless? I conceited to drugs and alcohol, but that is it! Yea, drugs and alcohol won the battle! That was hard for me to swallow, but there was no brainwashing necessary for this guy! Based on my OWN experiences I already knew before I entered AA that I could never drink or use again! I did have a choice on whether I wanted to live or die!
I guess I didn’t feel like getting into detail about it on the fist night that you asked me! But all of that crap that I wrote = insanity for me! Hopefully, that was a little clearer for you!!!
I don’t know why I am asking because I’m sure we will have the same result, but what is your take on genetic disposition?
Matt
Matt-
The most alarming aspects of your replies is something I’ve seen from every person in AA: an overly emotional response. For a program that supposedly teaches serenity dozens of people I’ve dealt with in several 12 step programs, including the flagship AA, all seem to communicate verbally and in writing with an emotional overdrive that is more evocative of fear than any sense of calm. CBT teaches you to handle your emotions and guides you through the process of self-control. 12 steps teaches powerlessness and that you have no control. Judging by your emphatic almost addicted use of exclamation points and ridiculous multiple question marks, you are surely on the 12 step band wagon and exemplify the type of parroted, hysterical (not funny, just full of hysteria) responses most of the people I’ve encountered over the course of 18 years sussing out those programs.
The 12 step support groups I attended fo three different types of behavioral problems were little more than placeboes for their members who are largely uninformed, anti-information and completely resistant to serious discussion about treatment. As Steve points out, AA does lie to its members who then carry that lie forward. They aren’t bad people per se, but they do bad things. One friend in AA is a security guard at the local hospital and requests time when he can watch people detoxing so he can ‘bring them the message of AA’. I find stuff like that not so much a chance for the detoxing patient to recover, but a cheap shot at an already vulnerable individual. I asked if he would recommend SOS or SMART and he said that’s for doctors to decide, he’s lving proof AA works. I think that mindset arrogant and damaging. Please respond using as many exclamation points and question marks as you can type.
Ryan
Ryan,
I find it hysterical (yes, funny!!!) that you can judge my character by exclamation points and question marks. AGAIN, it is not my purpose to say that any recovery option is better than the next. I focus on the solution, and AGAIN, IN MY OPINION, this site focus on the negatives of other groups rather than the solution. That doesn’t help anyone. I did attend a CBT rehab, and they did give us many options of recovery, but I am not going to state that Celebrate Recovery is terrible because Jesus is the answer or Life Ring doesn’t work because they don’t have a Higher Power. We all find solutions to our problems our own way and I am happy that there are multiple programs that work for all walks of life. But, why put down a program intended to help people? That is what I don’t understand. AA is not the only answer to life’s problems, but that is what works for me to stay sober!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I find it interesting (and a little sad too) when folks attempt to cope with/process their own emotionality by way of drawing attention to, and framing another’s response as overly emotional or ___(fill in the blank). Negative Projection: When we identify traits in others that we recognize in ourselves…and then we hyper-criticize them for it.
Being conscious/aware about what is the core/the driving force fueling our decision to engage others in conversation/discussion/’debate’ is sorta important ;0) Talk about a playground for arrogance and damage?-When our central motivation is simply to be ‘right’, rather than to serve individual and collective well being, consensus and forward momentum. Consensus in the arena of addiction-related prevention, intervention, treatment, recovery is sorely needed. And we should be further along by now considering all we’ve learned about substance use disorder- especially in the last two or three decades. But that consensus continues to elude us as a culture…And so does recovery/health/well being for multitudes of people challenged by substance use disorder. I don’t think that’s a coincidence…
I can’t help but wonder if this ‘lack of consensus’, which holds us all back, is the result of an absence of simple humanity/grace. This ‘lack of’ authentic spirit to support others in increasing their own self efficacy, by whatever means works for them, just seems to attach itself. Even at the mere mention of the word ‘addiction’ and/or ‘addict’ our emotionality surges.
As individuals so many of us just seem to need, above all, to be ‘right’ rather than to authentically support/inform/encourage. We can disagree and still accomplish all of those things -That’s the sad bitch of it. Our nature to tend toward being rigid in our stated opinions, as well as critical, (and not constructively critical, but ‘destructively’ critical-and we all f’n know the difference between the two before we choose which to implement), is beyond misguided and unproductive…because addiction is beyond complex.
*sigh*….It’s amazing to me how often the salient offerings of very astute individuals -offerings that are culturally/philosophically/academically relevant and ripe with potential to serve- are eclipsed by their inability to keep their inner toddler in check . Ryan -Please respond using as much ill-intended sarcasm as you can type:0)
I was already evaluating what I wanted from life, and whether the 12 steps would take me there. Then, a guy with 30 years sober talked with me about his disease, and how it told him to blow all his money on a boat to go down to the Caribbean so he could properly shoot his brains out with a shotgun.
He knew this was crazy. I knew this was crazy. He blamed this disease’s progressive nature. Meanwhile, people who *leave* the 12 Step groups with years of sobriety go on to have normal, happy, serene lives – I’ve seen it happen.
Then I remember what got me sober – thinking about the consequences I had with drinking each time I thought about alcohol. I would think so deeply and thoroughly that I winced outwardly. I repeated this until I developed a Pavlovian response to the thought of drinking. The thoughts of drinking didn’t last very long.
I stayed sober a full year before my sponsor was satisfied with my admission of powerlessness. After that, other parts of my life began falling apart in favor of this 12 step group.
It wasn’t an admission of powerlessness, it was applying something I learned in Psych 101 classes in a community college that kept me sober. But I still gave credit to AA and NA, because pressure at home demanded that I “treat my disease” or face homelessness.
My take: You were never powerless. If you had been, you certainly could not have come to the conclusion you did about your own patterns of thought and the resulting impact those thoughts had on your choices. You are, in fact, highly empowered! ‘Your’ efforts, based on ‘your’ conclusions, accomplished ‘your’ goal. Keep on keepin’ on…Continued health and well being to you!
These statistics are fundamentally meaningless. Here’s why.
Anybody who has been sober in AA then drinks to intoxication has just had a binge. That means anybody who has been in AA any length of time, remained sober then relapsed, has by any definition, “binged”.
On the other hand, somebody who is doing CBT hasn’t necessarily stopped drinking. He may in fact be drinking exactly the same amount as before. Whether he is or has cut back somewhat he’s not binging, but neither is he sober, unlike the guy in AA.
And for those who remain untreated, it’s quite likely, if they are alcoholics, that they are drinking every day rather than binging.
So what does this information about binging indicate about the efficacy of any of the aforementioned treatment methods? Nada.
Hi Brent,
Your assertion that those in the CBT group haven’t stopped drinking is flat out wrong. In this study, the 12-step and CBT group had equal rates of abstinence (but I would posit that the CBT group actually had a higher abstinence rate since there were less dropouts {approximately 40% dropped out of CBT group, and 70% dropped out from AA group}. People often drop out because they’re choosing to continue to drink).
I’m wondering – where did you learn your standards of what constitutes a binge and/or relapse? Any time someone chooses to drink to intoxication is considered a relapse? That’s EXACTLY the kind of dangerous self-defeating belief I’m talking about here.
[Reminder: I don't agree with the concept that relapse into a non-disease is actually possible - I'm only discussing relapse standards for argument's sake.]
Steve…Thanks for this. It makes me think. And in addition to being accurate…This is just real ‘sound’ reasoning:
“In this study, the 12-step and CBT group had equal rates of abstinence (but I would posit that the CBT group actually had a higher abstinence rate since there were less dropouts {approximately 40% dropped out of CBT group, and 70% dropped out from AA group}. People often drop out because they’re choosing to continue to drink).”
This is ‘sound’ reasoning, in addition to being accurate.
I believe, more and more -based on what I am witnessing as the consistent growth in the numbers of people choosing to utilize supports/tools that are based on the frame of CBT, like MI, aka Motivational Interviewing (which is what Self Management and Recovery training (SMART Recovery) is based on), REBT (Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy), ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Training) ect,- that we will, in the collective journey, come to an intersection in our culture whereby it will become detrimental for programs/philosophies framed on 12-step facilitation ‘not’ to adapt – in order that membership in AA and Al Anon doesn’t slow to a halt, over time. That is where it is headed. Anyone that is compelled to act out in ‘defensive’ posturing about the merits of CBTs (or really any other methodology) are those that are choosing to be a part of the problem rather than the solution.
Some times it’s evident why people/groups/organizations react defensively to the beliefs and opinions of others…and sometimes it’s not quite so clear. Ya know…Sometimes folks are just ‘not ready’ to think about or try something they see as different, or in some other way as deviating from what they are comfortable with. Being real clear here: ‘Status Quo’ and/or traditional approaches are not necessarily a bad thing for everyone, and every situation.
But, we for sure are not gonna encourage new avenues of creative, self efficacy-building problem solving by causing others to feel less than/marginalized because of the opinions and beliefs they hold. Hell, we can argue, and we can even launch personal attacks against one another for the opinions/beliefs held…til the cows come home (lol…but do they ever really come home?;0)..But it won’t change the reality that people are becoming more cognizant of the importance to develop an increasing and individual sense of awareness regarding our ‘very’ individual patterns of cognition (those patterns of thought-what it is that creates our scope and our sense that we can deal effectively with all the ranges of challenges/traumas/hardships we experience and in tandem, on any given day, even when it all sucks, still reflect on our life as valuable and purpose-filled, our self as worthy, and the road ahead- even with all it’s uncertainties- as absolutely full of potential. Some people would call that personal faith…others would call it self efficacy. The cool thing is…they are both correct ;0)